Need a word for an interesting idea
Was talking today with someone about this:
A movie comes out (Movie X) and is very influential. Many other filmmakers copy the style or the elements of the story, making films Y and Z.
If you see Y and Z first, and then see X, X seems derivative, even though it is the originator of the ideas. If you didn’t know the backstory, you’d think X was a knock-off, even though it’s the source.
Anyone know a term for this? Prestige Inversion? Creative Inversion? Looking for suggestions.
Personally, I’d call it a “Casablanca”, because when I finally saw it, I thought “this movie has copied so many others…”.
I’d call it an Integral Work since it’s the opposite of a Derivative Work. Bah-dum ching!
Inverse Attribution of Originality
Kurosawa Syndrome?
I would call it a Tesla.
blind carbon
I’d call it something like “Misattributed Pedigree” or “Actual vs Apparent Provenance.” In intellectual property, the pedigree of a work including the origin of any parts of it and whether they were incorporated with our without modification, is a very important concept when it comes to suing someone’s ass off. Basically what you’re talking about is the actual pedigree or provenance of a set of related works versus versus the order in which someone encountered the works.
How about dejarivitive? As in, it feels like you’ve viewed something similar before, but it turns out to have been in a derivative later work.
scott, this is when you look at the person disparagingly such that they might learn a bit of culture in the future
shakespeare did it first regardless
Movie X was the archetype for (some trait). Y and Z followed the pattern, though X was relatively unknown.
Movie X is the memetic primary of Y, and Z. Y is often thought to be the genesis of X.
Inveritance?
Warcrafting, after the way people feel on discovering Warhammer for the first time after long familiarity with Warcraft. Warhammer pre-dates Warcraft by years and the former was clearly the inspiration for the latter, yet because Warcraft is so much more popular than Warhammer it seems like the inspiration must have gone the other way.
How about calling them Prototypal-Permutations: instances of the original which have perceptively come before said original to a individual, thus changing the perceived lineal order?
I’d go with something like reversioned, because the original appears to be a later version instead.
I’m a bit disappointed with TVTropes for not having a clever name for this, but they do have loads of examples. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanTheyThink
I’d go with “Reverse Attribution”, since the earlier work is (incorrectly) attributed to the latter.
TV Tropes calls it “Seinfeld is Unfunny”, where something that was new and groundbreaking becomes so popular it’s now the status quo. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
Not sure what to call it, but you might ask someone in the music world, as this happens a lot with songs. I can think of half a dozen songs where I knew one or two cover versions before I ever heard the original. I’m sure you can think of examples, too. If there isn’t a word for this, you’re right that there SHOULD be.
Retroactive derivicity?
Wow – you guys are smart – these are great!
It’s related to ‘second mover advantage’ in business. Sometimes the first mover has to spend much effort proving that an idea can work, then someone else comes out with a slicker, better funded implementation.
The second mouse gets the cheese!
Filmeme? Dej
Seems that it’s the opposite of hindsight… so perhaps the word is “blindsight”?
it is called a prequel
A good name is quite important in whether people will remember the thing named or not. Simple short names usually stick best. But I’ve found that if you need a long time to think of a name for something, whatever name you come up with is probably not going to stick. If you took that long to think of it, other people will take just as long to remember it.
If you have the ability to “sell” the name such that if goes into the frequently used vocabulary of people you may not have this problem, but few words get there.
Anyway, this doesn’t prevent me from making some suggestions:
backspin: you could say that Y and Z are spin-offs, the reverse notion could be a backspin.
mistaken creator/artist/creativity: similar to mistaken identity
Wim
Ok, “Inveritance” wins – followed closely by “Dejaritive”.
pre-rivative?
Better marketing.
I don’t know of any existing term, but if creating new then why not “origi-knock” – too cheesy? Or “Second Source” ?
Bah, too early in the mornin! :)
Good luck, interesting question…
How about something simple like; False Derivative?
mindshare lag (X is suffering from …)
(x got) got lapped in the mindshare race
(x was) first not best
(x got) farnsworth’d
actually, methinks archetype is the best
Why not borrow from linguistics and use back-formation?
Why not borrow from linguistics and use back-formation? An archetype can usually be traced back to general, often shared, concepts, e.g., “the dying god,” and not something specific, so that’s probably not the best term for what you’re going for.
I nominate “the Hendrix effect”.
Music historians will tell you how profoundly Jimi Hendrix influenced guitar playing. But anyone listening to him for the first time won’t understand why. He’s not doing anything that special, and his technique isn’t even that good.
Unless you’ve really studied what came before, you won’t understand that before Hendrix, no one played like that. After Hendrix, everyone plays like that.
unrecognised pioneering
It’s probably not the word you’re looking for, but I call it ‘Timberlaking’
I’ve actually heard people of certain age talk about that ‘Stevie Wonder guy’ who copied Justin Timberlake’s style so closely. One actually suggested, indignantly, that a lawsuit was called for.
Here’s my term: erroneous synchronous attribution (when it should be diachronic or mimetic). Ah, critical theory! ;)
I’m assuming the author knowingly copied (and did not give overt credit), so the audience does not know, and gives credit to the most recent version seen/read.
But really there is no way of knowing whether one movie or book or idea was either derivative or unique, except by self report or citation by the author. As Malcom Gladwell and the Nobel Foundation know, great ideas can be simultaneously emergent.
This was on Metafilter yesterday
Its called the Weird Al Effect
http://www.metafilter.com/90326/Weird#3007268
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeirdAlEffect
I’d say your take on it comes close already.
I’d narrow it down to Creative Influence Permutation.
Scott, I hope you post a round-up of your top choices. I need a good word for this myself. My college-aged fan-of-modern-rock cousin is tends to call the Beatles derivative, and I need a good term that will put him in his place.
Influential Dissonance
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
Logical fallacy: “Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one.”
There’s always the sci-fi slant: “future history”, or the ever-popular “prequel”
Inverse Original or
Preceding Predecessor
Deja Pre-Vu.
“Scripts circulating around too much before they finally get produced.”
But I’m guessing that’s too short.
Reverse innovation might work.
or
Pre copy-cat
Dont know if this term is becoming archaic as I was born in the last century but the first thing that popped into my head about the new word was “copy-cat”. Then pre. It doesnt roll off the tongue as well as reverse innovation but places the spinnoffs into the proper perspective as well as the sense of being first.
Peter Grabas
Wow, TVTropes absolutely nails it with Seinfeld is Unfunny:
“It wasn’t old when they did it. It wasn’t overdone when they made it up. But the things it created were so brilliant and so popular with other show writers that they were not only copied, they became woven into the fabric of that show’s genre
The term for “Y” and “Z” (or more accurately, “A”) getting the credit is Reality Distortion Field.
What you are describing seems like a type of retro reverse mime process . Richard Dawkins I think explains the mime in his book SELFISH GENE(1989). This process of finding the original mime could be called a mime trace with the actual original mime called something like a master mime. Confusing the master mime as a copy would be a fools mime ;-)
first mover disadvantage
original deja vu